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?Barry?: How do I keep my marriage strong during the first year of marriage? The Julie Hanks Show 11.27.12 BYU Radio Sirius XM 143
Congress has gone back and forth so many times about the fate of the $1 coin, it might as well just flip one to decide.?
At a hearing of a House Financial Services subcommittee Thursday, lawmakers again pondered the question of phasing out the greenback and replacing it with a dollar coin ? even though $1.4 billion one-dollar coins are now piled up in Federal Reserve vaults because no one likes using them.
In its testimony, the Government Accountability Office estimated that the federal government would save about $4.4 billion over 30 years by switching to dollar coins. It reiterated an earlier recommendation that the United States phase out the dollar bill over a four-year transition period.
The underwater economics of minting pennies is well-known: It costs about two and a half cents to mint a cent, primarily due to the cost of the copper and zinc that go into each coin. But dollar coins don?t cost more to produce than they?re worth, and they last about 30 years, versus less than five years for a dollar bill.
In somewhat of an understatement, the GAO acknowledged that its proposal was ?controversial? and suggested the government spend nearly $8 million convincing people to embrace the change. A 2006 poll found that roughly two-thirds of Americans panned the idea of a dollar coin ? and this was after they were told coins could save the government half a billion dollars a year.
This might be why: The billions in savings are due to the fact that the U.S. Mint would have to produce more coins than we actually use. Unlike bills, coins have a habit of collecting in cupholders, hunkering down between couch cushions and otherwise slipping out of circulation. The government reaps a profit when money is issued but not used, and the GAO assumes that every two dollar bills would have to be replaced with three coins.
The fate of the greenback is far from decided; both pro-bill and pro-coin factions are arguing their positions, and the GAO points out that if we all start using our cell phones to buy things, the issue could be moot. But it?s possible that the 21st century version of ?under the mattress? will become ?the bottom of the junk drawer.?
A University of Utah study produced new mathematical support for a theory that explains why men in some cultures often feed and care for their sisters' children: where extramarital sex is common and accepted, a man's genes are more likely to be passed on by their sister's kids than by their wife's kids.
The theory previously was believed valid only if a man was likely to be the biological father of less than one in four of his wife's children ? a number that anthropologists found improbably low.
But in the new study, University of Utah anthropology Professor Alan Rogers shows mathematically that if certain assumptions in the theory are made less stringent and more realistic, that ratio changes from one in four to one in two, so the theory works more easily.
In other words, a man's genes are more likely to be passed by his sisters' children if fewer than half of his wife's kids are biologically his ? rather than the old requirement that he had to sire fewer than a quarter of his wife's kids, according to the study published online Nov. 28 in the journalProceedings of the Royal Society B.
"Imagine a mutation that encourages its bearers, if they are men, to be helpful and invest resources in the children of their sisters," Rogers says. "If that man lives in a society where most of his wife's children were fathered by other men, then this gene may not be in many of his wife's children. A man really doesn't know if any of his wife's kids were fathered by him, but he knows he and his sister have the same mom. So this gene may, in fact, be in more of his sisters' children."
"Thus, over time, the frequency of this gene increases because men are increasing the survival and fitness of their sisters' children ? the ones more likely to carry the gene," he adds.
The new study "shows that it is much easier than we thought for your niece to be a closer relative than your wife's daughter," Rogers says.
The research was funded by the University of Utah.
Why Men Help their Sisters' Kids: Theory and Debate
"Men invest in children in many ways; they care for them, feed them and leave them resources when the men die," Roger says. "But in some human societies, these are the children of sisters rather than those of wives. For decades, anthropologists have wondered why."
Extramarital mating is common in some cultures, including in central Africa and South America, he says, but not in the U.S. or other Western societies where infidelity, as prevalent as seems, much is less common by comparison.
"In some societies it is expected; it isn't seen as cheating," Rogers says. "And it isn't really just about promiscuity. Even where extramarital sex isn't common, women get divorced and remarried and have households with offspring from several men."
Rogers says: "In many societies where extramarital mating is the norm, men may not share genes with the children of wives. There is less doubt about relatedness to sisters' children. This suggests an interesting hypothesis: perhaps natural selection has shaped this practice, by encouraging males to direct investment toward genetic relatives."
"There was great enthusiasm for this idea during the 1970s, until a problem came to light," he continues. "Simple calculations suggested that the explanation collapses unless men father fewer than about one in four of their wife's children. Many have doubted that the number ? the paternity threshold number ? could really be this low."
Rogers' new study shows it is much easier than that for the idea to be true ? for natural selection to favor men who help their sisters' kids. He shows the theory holds true if men father fewer than half their wife's kids rather than fewer than one-quarter of those kids ? something much more likely to happen in reality.
The study shows this mathematically by relaxing assumptions previously made as part of the uncle-caretaker theory.
Rogers says it isn't enough to take into account the probability of paternity ? the odds that a child's biological father also is his mother's husband. The new study shows that if the assumptions made in old studies are relaxed, another parameter also must be measured: "the probability a brother and sister had the same biological father. The higher that probability, the more closely related a man is to his sister and his sister's kids."
Making Old Assumptions More Realistic
Rogers examined four assumptions made in previous studies and changed them to be more realistic. In this more realistic theory, men are more likely to share genes with their sister's children than under the old theory.
The first two assumptions of the existing theory were that "women are equally receptive to extramarital affairs and that each has an infinite number of paramours," says Rogers. "These assumptions both lower estimates of relatedness between men and the children of their sisters. Relaxing either assumption increases our estimate of the fitness payoff to men who invest in children of sisters."
[Rogers notes the theory applies to a man's sisters' children, but not to his brothers' children "because your brother has no more confidence than you do about the paternity of his wife's children. Sisters are a better bet, because they know who their kids are."]
"Previous calculations assume every woman in the population is equally promiscuous," Rogers says. "If you relax that assumption and instead assume some women are more promiscuous than others, it means men are more likely to share genes with their sisters' children."
"The earlier theory also assumed women each woman had an infinite number of boyfriends," instead of a range from one to infinity, he adds. "It made the math simple ? and it gave you a wrong answer."
The new study showed mathematically that a man's relatedness to his sister's kids increases if his wife has fewer rather than more extramarital partners and if she allocates sex ? and thus having children ? unevenly among them.
A third problem with previous studies is that they assumed resources given to any child were equally valuable. Rogers says that didn't account for the fact that giving your wife's kids twice as many resources isn't necessarily twice as good ? once the kids have what they need ? but may be only half again as good for them. So the man may be better off also giving resources to his sisters' kids.
"The old model didn't account for that, and because of that, it biased things in favor of the wife's children. When the nieces and nephews share fewer genes, they end up getting zero resources rather than some reduced share, as they should."
The fourth problem with most previous calculations was that they didn't account for a simple reality: "The best thing for a man to do depends on how his wife is going to respond," Rogers says. "If wives punish their husbands one way or another for delivering goods to their nieces and nephews, it's not just the husband deciding what is best for the husband. Women have an active role in all of these decisions and that role was ignored in the previous model."
Another study published recently took that into account, making it easier to understand how natural selection might favor men who invest in their sisters' offspring.
Rogers believes that natural selection and genetics ultimately contributes to people helping their relatives in most cultures, even if the primary motivation may be tax breaks for those who provide cash gifts to relatives rather than passing on one's genes.
"People are nice to relatives all over the world, and I think selection has something to do with that," he says.
###
University of Utah: http://www.unews.utah.edu/
Thanks to University of Utah for this article.
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KABUL (Reuters) - A roadside bomb exploded under a passenger van in southern Afghanistan on Thursday, killing 10 people, most of them women and children, government officials said.
Eight people were wounded in the blast in the Deh Rawood district of Uruzgan province, President Hamid Karzai's office said in a statement. The Interior Ministry said 14 people were wounded.
"Innocent peoples' blood will not be wasted and terrorists will be shamed in this world and hereafter," Karzai said in the statement.
Violence has been increasing across the country as an end of 2014 deadline approaches for most foreign combat troops to leave, putting the 350,000-strong Afghan security forces in control.
Civilians have borne the brunt of much of the violence in the 11-year conflict. A roadside bomb in the relatively peaceful province of Farah killed 17 people and wounded nine on November 16.
Most of the victims in Farah were also women and children, driving in a van as part of a wedding procession.
Three people were killed and more than 90 wounded on Friday, including several foreign soldiers, in a truck bombing in Wardak province near Kabul. Most of the casualties were civilians.
(Reporting by Mirwais Harooni; Editing by Martin Petty and Robert Birsel)
ScienceDaily (Nov. 28, 2012) ? The diagnostic system used by many mental health practitioners in the United States -- known as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders -- assumes that symptoms of two disorders that occur at the same time are additive and that the order in which the disorders are presented doesn't matter. But new research suggests that order actually plays a significant role in determining how clinicians think about psychiatric disorders.
In an article published in Clinical Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science, researchers Jared Keeley, Chafen DeLao, and Claire Kirk of Mississippi State University draw from existing research on conceptual combination to investigate how clinicians diagnose psychiatric disorders that occur together.
They predicted that for disorders with overlapping symptoms -- such as major depressive disorder (MDD) and generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) -- clinicians would describe the disorders pretty much the same way, regardless of which disorder was presented first.
But for two disorders that are quite different -- such as generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) and antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) -- the researchers predicted that the order in which symptoms are presented would significantly influence clinicians' descriptions of the disorders.
Keeley and colleagues also predicted that the features of one disorder would overshadow the features of another, providing evidence for a "dominance" effect.
In two different studies, the researchers asked clinicians to identify the symptoms that would describe each of three disorders individually (MDD, GAD, ASPD) and the symptoms that would describe paired combinations of the three disorders.
In both studies, the clinicians were inconsistent in their descriptions of disorder pairs -- for example, the symptoms they identified for a combination of MDD + ASPD were not necessarily the same as those identified for a combination of ASPD + MDD.
And in one of the two studies, the researchers found that the order of symptoms mattered more for clinicians' descriptions of disorders that were different than for disorders that overlapped, partially confirming their original hypothesis.
Together, these results seem to contradict the assumption that order doesn't matter in psychiatric diagnoses.
Findings from a third study indicated that clinicians' descriptions of the symptoms involved in GAD were dominated by their descriptions of both MDD and ASPD, while symptoms of ASPD and MDD had equal weight.
Keeley and colleagues offer several possible explanations for their findings. Clinicians could be straying from the additive guidelines of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Alternatively, their clinical experiences may have led to "rater drift," such that the criteria that they use to evaluate symptoms have drifted over time.
But it's also possible that practitioners are actually ahead of the curve. Keeley, DeLao, and Kirk argue that clinicians could be "accurately modeling an aspect of psychopathology that our current diagnostic system has yet to accommodate."
While it remains to be seen whether these findings have implications for the actual treatment of psychiatric disorders, Keeley and colleagues believe that these three studies may help researchers and practitioners in trying to bring the classification of psychiatric disorders and actual clinical practice closer together.
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The above story is reprinted from materials provided by Association for Psychological Science.
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Journal Reference:
J. W. Keeley, C. S. DeLao, C. L. Kirk. The Commutative Property in Comorbid Diagnosis: Does A B = B A?Clinical Psychological Science, 2012; DOI: 10.1177/2167702612455742
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Disclaimer: This article is not intended to provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of ScienceDaily or its staff.
While picking at the bones of a hippo carcass, one hyena takes a quick break to attack another.
Early one morning I caught sight of Morpheus, silhouetted against a pink African dawn. Her long, sloping neck was stretched out as she loped away from me, disappearing over a hill. I followed her to a nearby plain and was met with the unmistakable sound of a group of hyenas squabbling over a carcass. Morpheus entered the fray, first lunging at a smaller male on her right. A moment later, she looked up briefly, her nose and mouth covered in blood, then turned and snapped at a hyena feeding nearby.
I?m intimately acquainted with Morpheus and these other hyenas because they have been studied for more than twenty years by various members of the lab where I did my Ph.D. research; I?ve staked these hyenas out at dens for hours on end and followed them as they raced across open plains. From watching these animals, we?ve learned about hyenas? social system, their physiology, and the conservation challenges they face.
But to me, it?s the aggression that is the most fascinating thing about hyenas. It?s rule-based and constrained by specific social norms, but at the same time, it?s incredibly primal and ruthless. Studying aggression has helped us understand what makes hyenas tick, offering us a glimpse into the evolutionary pressures that have made them one of the most unusual and misunderstood species in the animal kingdom.
Formidable females
For more than 1000 years, people believed that hyenas were hermaphrodites, since female hyenas have long, fully-erectile pseudopenises that mimic male genitalia. Seeing a hyena play the role of mom while sporting what looks like a penis would bewilder even an astute naturalist. Not only do female hyenas look like males, they are also the more aggressive and socially dominant sex, exhibiting aggression more than three times more often than male hyenas do.
For many animals, too much aggression is detrimental, at least in terms of reproductive success; in baboons, aggressive females have reduced fertility and increased rates of miscarriage , and in western bluebirds, overly-aggressive males tend to fledge fewer offspring than other males. But in these species, males are generally more aggressive than females; how is aggressiveness related to fitness in a species where females are the more aggressive sex?
Life in the clan
Three young hyenas gang up in an aggressive coalition against a low-ranking female.
Hyenas live in huge social groups called clans that are structured by a ?linear dominance hierarchy.? That?s the scientific way of saying that in these societies, a high-ranking individual is dominant to every lower-ranking animal in the clan: Morpheus is dominant to Scrabble, who is dominant to Hendrix, and so on. For hyenas, social rank isn?t just a title or a badge of honor. Rank determines access to food, so a high-ranking hyena like Morpheus can drive a lower-ranking hyena off a kill at any time, no matter who hunted or scavenged the meat.
Social rank also plays an important role in aggressive behavior among hyenas, since dominance determines who can exhibit aggression toward whom. Aggression is nearly always directed down the hierarchy, toward lower-ranking hyenas (and if a hyena disregards this rule, it?s not taken lightly by other clan members). This means that the highest-ranking hyenas have a lot of opportunities for aggression ? they can attack nearly any other hyena in the clan ? whereas lower-ranking hyenas have far fewer possible targets. Aggression can occur over food, in defense of cubs, or to reprimand a pesky suitor.
But unlike many species, aggression doesn?t dictate social rank among hyenas; instead, social rank is inherited. Hyenas are stuck with their lot in life, unable to move up the hierarchy. So does all this aggression actually benefit hyenas, and if so, how?
The implications of aggression
Aggressiveness, it turns out, varies drastically among hyenas; some hyenas tend to threaten ? or outright attack ? group members more frequently than others do. There is more than a five-fold difference in the aggression rates of the least aggressive and the most aggressive females, even after controlling for social rank and the number of opportunities for aggression.
This type of consistent variation in behavior, called ?animal personality,? is being found in several traits, such as sociability, boldness, and docility, across many species. And aggressiveness, like other personality traits, can have major implications for fitness. However, for hyenas, aggression doesn?t affect fitness by improving a hyena?s own survival; aggressive females don?t live longer or survive at higher rates than others that attack less often.
Instead, the benefits of aggressiveness are seen later down the line, in the survival of offspring. Female hyenas that are particularly aggressive over food successfully rear a larger proportion of their cubs to adulthood than do females that aggress less often over food. But interestingly, the benefits of aggressiveness depend on social rank. For high-ranking hyenas, aggressiveness doesn?t matter much in terms of reproductive success; the offspring of dominant females do well no matter how aggressive their mom is. However, for hyenas low on the totem pole, aggression plays an important role in reproductive success, greatly improving their offspring?s odds of surviving until adulthood. But how?
Competition and reputations
It all comes down to acquiring resources for your offspring. High-ranking hyenas already have prime access to food, so being super-aggressive at a kill or carcass isn?t a huge advantage. However, for hyenas low on the totem pole, being able to secure a little extra food for a cub could mean the difference between its survival and starvation.
A hyena cub snuggles with its mother at the den.
When cubs begin eating meat at around 4 months of age, they start visiting kills with their moms. But as these cubs attempt to eat, they are often harassed by older hyenas and chased off the carcass. Additionally, these young hyenas have another disadvantage when it comes to feeding: their skulls haven?t finished developing yet. Although being able to crush bone is a big benefit for hyenas evolutionarily, it?s a huge morphological handicap for cubs. It takes up to 35 months for a hyena?s skull to develop the integrity and strength to crack bone, so until about three years of age, young hyenas feed more slowly and less efficiently than adults. Combine this physical disadvantage with the incredible feeding competition seen at kills, and cubs ? especially low-ranking ones ? often don?t get much to eat during these communal feeding situations.
Here?s where a mom?s aggressiveness comes in: we found that the cubs of aggressive females are tolerated better, and are able to feed longer, at these kills than the cubs of less aggressive females are. By being super-aggressive, moms secure extra feeding time and valuable calories for their cubs during this particularly handicapped period in their lives. Although we don?t completely understand the process yet, aggressive females appear to develop a type of ?mean girl? reputation within the clan that gives their offspring a boost early in life. This effect is incredibly strong and persists even when the mom isn?t present at the kill, allowing cubs to benefit from their mom?s aggressiveness even in her absence. This increased access to resources benefits low-ranking hyenas disproportionately, since they generally have very limited access to food.
A combination of behavioral, morphological, and ecological research has helped us begin to understand why these highly aggressive and masculinized females have been favored evolutionarily. But even after 20 years of intensive research, there?s so much more to learn; we still aren?t sure what the functions and implications of male aggression are, and it?s possible that there are consequences of aggression in females that we haven?t yet discovered.
Morpheus and her clanmates are still being observed, and you can follow the trials, tribulations, and musings of the researchers studying these hyenas out in the field at the Mara Hyena Project blog.
Are You Using RSS Feeds To Market Your Blog Or Websites
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In the Silicon Valley Distortion Field, it can seem like everyone is learning to code -- that coding has become cool. Either way you slice it, talented programmers are in demand, and, as a result, there is now a litany of platforms and tutorials?that propose to help anyone and everyone become a code-slinger, often from the comfort of their favorite sofa (and browser).
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The No Touching Rule In Sheepdog Trials
#1 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Yesterday, 09:49 PM
I was reading in the livestock management thread, and something struck me as interesting.
Under discussion was an unruly ewe that stood off a young dog with threat displays. It was pointed out that a whack on the bridge of her nose would have likely sorted her. I'm sure this is a regular practice in sheep farming as even the most affable ruminants can sometimes get stroppy.
I was thinking about so many videos of sheepdog trails - usually at the penning - that a well-placed knee to the butt of a static sheep would have dramatically improved the penning time of the contestant.
So if trialing is meant to be a display of the work of a stock dog and its handler, why is this sort of thing, which must come up routinely in real work situations, not allowed at trials? Is it an attempt to avoid the issue of "how much force is too much force"? Or is it that the judges want to see the dog do the lion's share of the close work?
Do dogs that normally work livestock for a living in a farm or ranch setting ever seem puzzled at a trial by the handler's lack of willingness to help things along with a well-timed smack to a sheep's butt or nose?
#2 ? Liz P?
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Posted Yesterday, 10:03 PM
The trial is supposed to showcase the dog more than anything. People want to know if the dog has the skills to do what needs to be done. If handlers were allowed to interfere too much you would have a harder time sorting out how much was the dog and how much was the handler. As it is, that can sometimes be hard to determine. Remember, people often use what they see in a dog at trials to make decisions about breeding or purchasing a pup.
#3 ? DeltaBluez Tess?
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Posted Yesterday, 10:29 PM
At home if a ewe is slow to go into the stall, I do the boot in the butt encouragement....doesn't work at trials...as for a ewe standing up to a dog, a quick nip might work...or the dog slowly advancing....at trial you want to showcase your dog. At home, i need to get the job done. I teach my dogs to gip on commands so at home, if a ewe is being a snot, a quick grip changes her mind. BUT i you run on a farm flock and have sour ewe that won't move even if a dog grips her, then you are out of luck. either way, your dog must be able to show that he/she can stand up and move a unrury ewe.
(Note: the boot in the butt is me putting my boot on the sheep hind end and pushing her in...not kicking. I do not kick or hit my sheep)
#4 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Yesterday, 10:48 PM
OK, I get it, but I'm imagining the poor dog, having not won the trial because some ewe was standing just outside the pen until the clock ran out, thinking, "What's up with mom/dad? He/she usually has my back in these situations..."
Of course, the dog probably doesn't go over the run in his mind on the way home. But that moment at the gate, when the handler is watching the clock run out, tendons singing like high-tension wires - and not whacking that ding-busted ewe in the rear. Do you think the dog ever thinks WTF?
#5 ? DeltaBluez Tess?
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Posted Yesterday, 11:05 PM
ghot it, if that happens I just retire and help push the ewe along with the dog following.....then tell dog, "good girl/boy......"
#6 ? juliepoudrier?
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Posted Yesterday, 11:22 PM
I'm sure we've all seen (or done) handler antics at the pen to try to remove that reluctant sheep. Like Diane, if we fail for some reason, I'm always sure to get the sheep moving on the way to the exhaust and let the dog know it was a job well done.
I don't think dogs think WTF.
J.
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Julie Poudrier Oxford, NC Willow, Farleigh, Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Twist (the troll), Katty Rat, Little Miss Larky Malarky, Phoebe (the rabid possum), Pipit (aka Goober), Ranger Danger, and Kestrel (aka Messy Kessie) Willow's Rest, Tunis sheep and mule sheep
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#7 ? Gloria Atwater?
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Posted Today, 12:44 AM
geonni banner, on 26 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:
OK, I get it, but I'm imagining the poor dog, having not won the trial because some ewe was standing just outside the pen until the clock ran out, thinking, "What's up with mom/dad? He/she usually has my back in these situations..."
Of course, the dog probably doesn't go over the run in his mind on the way home. But that moment at the gate, when the handler is watching the clock run out, tendons singing like high-tension wires - and not whacking that ding-busted ewe in the rear. Do you think the dog ever thinks WTF? />/>/>
I don't think the dogs really see it that way. Unless the situation is totally horrible and the dog is completely stressed, I doubt the dog is aware of much but the job at hand. He's not, or shouldn't be, thinking in terms of the human taking up his slack. If a dog lacks confidence and is caught in a nasty situation, i.e. a ewe that charges him or just stamps and faces him off for several minutes, then yes, I can see a dog suffering some sort of setback.
But I also think that we as handlers practice enough at home, (or should,) in encouraging the dog to do as much of the work as possible, that the dog is not really expecting us to step in. Also, at the pen, there is so much that we can do: step forward or back, wiggle the rope, waggle our crook, stomp our feet, crouch or bend, (once I leaned over and BLEW in a ewe's face - she went in, lol) that I don't think the dog will really feel hung out to dry. Not unless we're just standing there like a lump.
My tuppence, anyhow. />/> And if things really go bad, I just try to let my dog know that I appreciate their effort and they are still a good dog. Respectfully submitted,
Gloria
You ask of my companions. Hills, sir, and the sundown, and a dog as large as myself that my father bought me. They are better than human beings, because they know but do not tell. ~ Emily Dickinson
To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring - it was peace. ~ Milan Kundera
#8 ? Donald McCaig?
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Posted Today, 05:19 AM
Dear Trainers,
The boot to the butt or the crook across the bridge of the nose will, indeed, get the sheep's attention shifted from what you might want her to do to you - the new threat on the block. After decades of working sheep, I am trying to think of an instance where brute force made a sheep do what she didn't wanna. Still thinking . . .
Donald McCaig
#9 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Today, 01:30 PM
Gloria Atwater, on 27 November 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:
But I also think that we as handlers practice enough at home, (or should,) in encouraging the dog to do as much of the work as possible, that the dog is not really expecting us to step in. Gloria
This explains it best for me. Do you train a dog that is primarily a farm/ranch working dog on a trial type course to get it ready to work in a trial?
I'm assuming that the work interaction on a trial course is at least a little different from when the dog is at home. IE - the handler never touches the stock and stays at the post for the outrun, fetch, and cross drive.
Would a shed at home be materially different from that on a trial course? Meaning, would the handler be helping to split the sheep using the crook or doing a bit of pushing?
#10 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Today, 01:32 PM
Donald McCaig, on 27 November 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:
Dear Trainers,
The boot to the butt or the crook across the bridge of the nose will, indeed, get the sheep's attention shifted from what you might want her to do to you - the new threat on the block. After decades of working sheep, I am trying to think of an instance where brute force made a sheep do what she didn't wanna. Still thinking . . .
Donald McCaig
Well, maybe not the handler, but as for the dog but isn't that what a grip is for?
#12 ? Donald McCaig?
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Posted Today, 04:39 PM
Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,
When I suggested that whacking a sheep rarely gets her to do what you wish, Ms Banner wondered: but isn't that what a" (dog) " grip is for?"
Like other violence, there are times when a grip is effective and more times when it just makes things worse.
Effective: some neighbor kids brought their ten pet sheep to be sheared with ours. Big Suffolk recovering bottle lambs, never seen a dog before. Luke promptly bit the leader on the nose to inform her she was a sheep.
Makes things worse: Maiden ewe defending her newborn, sick sheep won't move, single sheep fleeing, terrified lamb . . .
Donald McCaig
#13 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Today, 04:53 PM
Donald McCaig, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:
Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers, ...Like other violence, there are times when a grip is effective and more times when it just makes things worse... Donald McCaig
I wish more folk could see this in day-to-day dealings.
#14 ? TEC?
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Posted Today, 04:55 PM
geonni banner, on 27 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:
Well, maybe not the handler, but as for the dog but isn't that what a grip is for?
A well-placed grip with just the right force, timing and duration certainly has its place in trialing and farm-work. Most handlers do not want to train the grip out of a dog, as it likely takes a little keenness with it. IME it's a fine balance that has to be maintained, so that your dog is not consistently getting DQ'd, yet retains good keenness along with a justified grip when reasonably needed. Parameters of what's justified varies among judges and handlers.
My little dog has an ,"Are you talking to me?" snap toward the nose (never seen her connect) that usually turns the sheep another direction. Infrequently she has the standard run-along-side and briefly grip wool behind front shoulders, which tells me she was out of position, and she knew it. Little like the "blatant foul" in basketball. We're working on that one, chiefly by getting her into correct position from the beginning.
Do good and experienced handlers humanely manhandle stock when need be? In event the dog, for instance, isn't successful pushing sheep through gate into muddy half of pen, handlers sometimes have to, for example, take hold of sheep to get a few through so that others will follow. The task needs to get done, nevertheless it would be poor training to have his dog try with all its ability, yet fail.
I liked everything Gloria said, especially about handler (and dog) from time to time "stepping back", also known as pressure-and-release. This tactic can be especially effective for close-in work. Sometimes the dog and handler him/herself can inadvertently over pressure stock. When stock feel too much, too close, too forceful, or too fast they freeze in-place and/or turn assertively toward the dog. A dog and handler: 1) stepping back (or moving left/right) from the packet to be shed in order to spread the group, or 2) opening the gate only halfway, so that if stock stall in entrance, there is room to swing it further-still...these are examples of releasing pressure. It's best, I believe, to find ways to invite stock to do what they likely want to do in any event.
I try to build my dog's confidence by placing her in progressively more difficult situations. If my estimation is off, and we find that she was moved along too soon, it may be best to set-up a more appropriate training scenario, or if a chore has to be done, step-up and use reasonable measures. Does a dog feel let-down by a handler who will not directly assist? I believe the dog loses a notch or two of confidence in his/her own abilities. IME herding dogs are resilient, and an occasional training error can be overcome by a little extra patience and better choice of difficulty levels. Incorporating intangibles of pace and flow can obviate many stock-dog-handler confrontations. -- Kind regards, TEC
Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. - Patton
#15 ? Smalahundur?
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Posted Today, 06:05 PM
Donald McCaig, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:
Makes things worse: Maiden ewe defending her newborn, sick sheep won't move, single sheep fleeing, terrified lamb . . .
Not to put a finer point on it, but nobody with any sense of stock would use violence, be it a nose grip or a whack from a staff in the above situations. But maybe I wasn?t in the group you adressed, what exactly are "wouldbe" sheepdoggers...?
#16 ? juliepoudrier?
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Posted Today, 07:02 PM
geonni banner, on 27 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:
This explains it best for me. Do you train a dog that is primarily a farm/ranch working dog on a trial type course to get it ready to work in a trial?
I don't have panels or a pen so I personally don't train on a trial type course on a regular basis. But one can use the natural obstacles in a field to practice the elements of a trial course. I don't own a freestanding pen, so if I want to practice that I'd need to go elsewhere, but I can send sheep through gates or put them in barn stalls and really the principle is largely the same.
Quote
Would a shed at home be materially different from that on a trial course? Meaning, would the handler be helping to split the sheep using the crook or doing a bit of pushing?
From a practical standpoint, if I needed to sort sheep at home, the fastest and easiest way to do so is to gate sort. This means that you man the gate and use your dog to bring the sheep up and then shift them around so the sheep you want end up at the gate opening and you can let them through. I almost never have a need to shed in an open field, but on occasions when I need to do that, how much I help or train or anything else would largely depend on why I'm separating a sheep and how pressed for time I am.
Likewise, I wouldn't take the time to park a trailer in the middle of a field and then proceed to try to load it. It would be an interesting training exercise to do so, but if I'm loading a trailer it's usually because I need to get the sheep somewhere on time and so I need to do it as quickly and efficiently as possible. So in that case, I'd pull the trailer along a fence or in a gateway or something similar so that I could create something of a chute that would funnel the sheep toward the back of the trailer. That would make it easier for me and the dog(s) to get the sheep loaded as efficiently and non-traumatically (for the sheep) as possible.
ETA: I went back and looked at your original question, and I think you need to consider context as well. In the livestock management section the discussion was about a ewe facing off and stomping at a *pup.* Youngsters can be seriously set back if they are hit, chased, etc., by a ewe. So in a case like that, as I said there, I'd probably go over and help turn the ewe. Normally just getting between her and a pup and wavings one's arms would be enough to turn her, but if not, then yeah, I might whack her on the nose. But you have to remember that it's a special circumstance and not an everyday occurence.
J.
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#17 ? juliepoudrier?
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Posted Today, 07:06 PM
Quote
Makes things worse: Maiden ewe defending her newborn, sick sheep won't move, single sheep fleeing, terrified lamb
Not to put a finer point on it, but nobody with any sense of stock would use violence, be it a nose grip or a whack from a staff in the above situations.
Well, to be honest, if I have a single fleeing and the dog gets in front of it and stops it with a nose grip I don't consider that a situation where a grip *isn't* warranted. But for the other cases, I generally agree.
J.
I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream. ~Vincent van Gogh
Julie Poudrier Oxford, NC Willow, Farleigh, Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Twist (the troll), Katty Rat, Little Miss Larky Malarky, Phoebe (the rabid possum), Pipit (aka Goober), Ranger Danger, and Kestrel (aka Messy Kessie) Willow's Rest, Tunis sheep and mule sheep
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#18 ? Gloria Atwater?
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Posted Today, 08:51 PM
geonni banner, on 27 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:
This explains it best for me. Do you train a dog that is primarily a farm/ranch working dog on a trial type course to get it ready to work in a trial?
I'm assuming that the work interaction on a trial course is at least a little different from when the dog is at home. IE - the handler never touches the stock and stays at the post for the outrun, fetch, and cross drive.
Would a shed at home be materially different from that on a trial course? Meaning, would the handler be helping to split the sheep using the crook or doing a bit of pushing?
I'm just moved up to Open, so still a newbie to higher levels of trialing, but for my own part, I like my dogs to understand both work and trialing. I don't own sheep, but whenever I can help friends or even just help out at a trial, I jump at the chance.
For my level of trialing - i.e., not world-moving - I'm not training a trial course, per se. I'm training the segments of it. I want a nice, long drive on my dogs, so I work to encourage steady driving. I want pace when coming into a panel and alacrity when turning into the cross drive, so I train and encourage solid stops, an honest "steady" and clean flanks. (We can discuss another time whether I get those! )
One thing I can see that can catch a handler up, when taking a dog from farm work to trialing, is that in daily work, the dog is permitted to make more of his own decisions. There's a job to do, the dog 'gets' the job, so we aren't requiring as much precision or obedience.
So, if I have a trial coming up, I'll take time out to put on extra polish, sharpen up the stops, focus on the pace, and in general make sure the dog's responses are a little crisper and cleaner than in daily work. I'm reminding him that hey, pal, right now I need you to give a little more focus to what I'm telling you, not just what you think we're doing.
I'm still fairly shaky on the shed, but when practicing shedding at home, (read, at my friends' places) my focus is on helping my dogs understand and become eager about the shed, so I am doing a fair bit of helping. I'll step in more, use my crook more, stamp my feet, etc., to make that opening happen. (In practice/training, I'm dealing with fairly doggy farm-flock sheep.) But in a trial, I think judges prefer to see minimal human input, in the shed. We get to pick the place to make the cut, but I would expect the judge to nick me pretty hard, if I step in to make the gap.
That said, though, being as I'm still starting out, I'll do what I think it takes to make the shed happen. Someday when I'm better at this, I'll worry about making my shedding more judge-approved.
Respectfully submitted,
Gloria
You ask of my companions. Hills, sir, and the sundown, and a dog as large as myself that my father bought me. They are better than human beings, because they know but do not tell. ~ Emily Dickinson
To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring - it was peace. ~ Milan Kundera
#19 ? DeltaBluez Tess?
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Posted Today, 09:31 PM
Donald McCaig, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:
Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,
Donald McCaig
Don,
Who are you referring to "Wouldbe Sheepdoggers".....this kinda implies none of us are sheepdog folks but wannabes....which is not true for me as well as some of others who have sheep and/or are Open trial folks...or you just only addressing those who are not folks who do not have sheep and/or do not trial?
Diane
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geonni banner, on 26 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:
/>/> And if things really go bad, I just try to let my dog know that I appreciate their effort and they are still a good dog.
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